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Does SNN's iconography offend everyone on the Left?
That's pretty much the message I got from an exchange of views of the great UK left wing anti-Jihadi blog Harrys Place.
I think that what is needed is an antifascist campaign that combines fighting the neo Nazi far right with the Islamist far right. I’m convinced that this is the only way to defeat both. Part of the reason - not the only one - that the BNP has risen is that the cordon sanitaire that surrounded far Right thought has been fatally compromised by the accommodation between the far Left and the Islamist far Right. Organisations which say pretty outrageous and extreme things have got op eds in the Guardian and have cultivated links with Labour (and LibDem and occasionally Tory) MPs. This allows the BNP to say: “We’re the only ones who are standing up for *you*”. Both groups share a common racist hatred of Jews - including Holocaust denial - but yet the Islamists have been given a pass on this by large sections of the Left. That lowers the bar as to what constitute acceptable political discourse. As the BNP pursues its ‘thug in a suit’ rebranding strategy, it actually allows them to pose as the ‘less extreme’ of the two.
All very good, and very much in line with the way many of us on the Right think (except for our very own mirror-images of Vanessa's loonies, yes Ann Coulter I'm looking at you).
So I decided to weigh in with my very own tale of cross-political woe.
It’s just not that easy to fight a two-front political war, most people find it difficult to get their heads around anything so complex. People tend to drift lazily towards a simple “us correct/good, them wrong/evil” worldview, with “us” and “them” drawn clearly and simply. Some of you over here on what I suppose we can still term the Left are having an absolutely terrible time trying to get your heads around the idea that anyone with brown skin might not necessarily be a victim of western oppression and therefore politically blameless. Having said that, in my own political corner (the “Right” I suppose, as I’m keen on living my life with as little interference from the government as possible) there are indeed a few people driven so mad with rage by the Islamic Right that they are prepared to cooperate with political groups such as Belgium’s Vlaams Belang that simply don’t pass a basic smell test. It might surprise you the we’re having exactly the same internal shit-fight over cooperation with our crazies as you are with yours. As far as I’m concerned, Nazis, Islamists and the few remaining Communists are simply different aspects of the same problem - people who know better than you how you should live your life and are fully prepared to murder hundreds of millions of people in order to bring about paradise on earth in which everyone will be forced to act and think the same way. Oh, and for some reason the Jews always seem to be in the way of such movements and need to be removed as an urgent priority, really you’d think that might be a clue for modern people who still seem confused about Islamism. I run a center-right satirical/news podcast and recently I’ve been trying to broaden its base (as this post suggests) by getting someone from the sensible Nick Cohen/Martin Bright Left to become a contributor. Can I get someone? Can I hell! No one wants to cross that political Rubicon and actually speak to what they still believe is “the enemy”. It’s pretty dispiriting - most left wing people and blogs I’ve approached, including Harrys Place, simply haven’t responded. Others have simply not been able to grasp the concept that the challenge we’re facing might require a more broadly based political response and that, as Ben Franklin once observed, we must hang together or we shall most assuredly hang separately.
At this point a commenter called "Mr BP" responded, not unsympathetically, with some advice on how to broaden SNN's appeal.
Tom Paine your web site, podcast and blog are very slick. The reason why you are not getting any response from “The decent Left” is not because of your centre right small government politics but because of the flag waiving Anglocentric nature of your website. The decent Left may have moved away from dogmatic multiculturalism and cultural relativism but pride in Anglo identity and culture will be forever a no no. The decent Left has no problem with open neocons like Douglas Murray or Oliver Kamm but us Brits from a Leftist back ground have been bought up in a society where flag waiving is intrinsically a sign of racism. Where the only people to hold up Winnie Churchill as a hero are arrogant aristocratic imperialistic dinosaurs and white working class racists. Your website makes the mistake of prominently displaying Western flags (American, Canadian, British etc) with a red St George Cross superimposed over them and the tagline “Defending the Anglosphere through satire”. hrow into the mix the Winston Churchill (A man who the Left fought because of his staunch imperialism) pictures and quotes and you have a website that is bound to get any Leftist running a mile. Especially Leftists like Nick Cohen who are under attack and being denounced as neocons. It would be the nail in the coffin, the far left would just have to direct people to your site and say Nick Cohen contributes to a flag waiving, imperialistic, racist website and he could expect to see his books slip from the bestseller list. I don’t think your site is racist. I don’t think waiving a Union Jack is racist. I don’t think having great respect for Winston Churchill is racist, it’s just all three of these things have been so inextricably related to the worst elements in British society for so long no British Leftists will touch your site with a bargepole. Perhaps a change of image might help you broaden your appeal.
Yeah, thanks for the helpful tips Mr BP, not going to happen though.
Here's what I responded with.
Well, if people react badly to the country’s flag, and a picture of one of it’s greatest leaders, I think that’s something of a judgment on them, not those symbols. What would they prefer? The bland EU circle of stars on a blue background, and a photo of Jade Goody? People don’t feel any sort of emotional pull, the “mystic chords of memory” towards anything the majority of the modern Left puts forward as an alternative. We NEED our iconography, our myths and legends, our organic link with history - why do you think Labour (sorry, according to my chums on the Daily Mail I have to use “ZANU-NuLabour”) is about as popular as rabies on a stick right now? We’ve been told to feel ashamed of ourselves, to beat ourselves up for our sins, both real and imaginary, and we just don’t enjoy feeling that way. And when people don’t like something, they eventually reject it. Look, I’m not suggesting everyone start standing up at the start of the movies while they play the national anthem over a clip of HM the Q at the Trooping of the Colour, which I still remember doing as a schoolboy at the Majestic Theater in Auckland. But the Left seems intent on chucking the baby out with the bathwater with this obsession over some sort of colonial guilt. When it came time for us to leave, we left, didn’t we? Voluntarily, with a nice handover ceremony involving a minor royal and flags being raised at midnight. We didn’t have to be carried out feet-first in a box like the French, who’ve never left ANYWHERE voluntarily, or the Portuguese who blew up all the ports, roads and power stations before climbing onto their ships and pissing off. We’re guilty of what we did wrong, no one is questioning that. But to pretend it’s all just one sorry litany of racist oppression is a foul injustice on what is a much more complex story.
To which Mr BP came back with...
Well I agree with you Tom Paine but that is the reason why you are scaring away the decent Left. It’s got nothing to do with your centre right politics. It’s all that iconography you’ve got going on. It’s not necessarily the decent Leftist view that it’s racist to fly the flag but whether we like it or not that is the mainstream view of British patriotism. At best they are seen as backward and insular little Englanders at worst they are branded as racist fuckwits. They are rarely the good guys unless England are playing football on the day. The default position is that anyone who goes in for British heroes, iconography and Anglo pride must be closely allied to Combat 18. That iconography has been besmirched by a campaign that was so successful that a politician would lose votes if he started talking about being patriotic whilst waving a flag and quoting Churchill. Our iconography, our myths and legends, our organic link with history has been severed. More than one generation has been bought up without those things and my generation was bought up to feel shameful about our history. As a white English kid growing up in North London in the 80’s I was bought up to celebrate other cultures and shun my own. Celebrating Jamaican culture or Hindu festivals was encouraged but a celebration of Britishness was without a doubt trespassing on the territory of the National Front. Leave all that national pride to the nazis. Churchill must be turning in his grave. I know that the majority of intelligent level headed people I know would view flag waving patriotism as a bad thing to be frowned on. The problem is they are the majority and they set the status quo, just as in the past there was nothing wrong with being gay but the status quo said it was a bad thing so homosexuality had to be hidden. Most of the people who have created the trends molded our modern culture and made anti racism mainstream have also made British history, culture and identity something to be ashamed of. Teachers, academics, directors, journalists, musicians and comedians for decades have chipped away at our iconography, our myths and legends, our organic link with history all in the name of equality and eradication of racism. They have done a bloody good job because we now have generations of confused British people who feel they have no identity other than Big Brother, The Sun and football. On the flipside we have a growing Muslim community which is increasingly radicalised and has nothing to integrate into apart from Big Brother, The Sun and football. Looking at it from their point of view the strong culture, the warrior code, the proud imperial history and the black flag of Islam looks a damn sight more appealing than a Britain which feels ashamed, apologetic and doesn’t have the courage to stand up for itself for fear of offence. Why integrate into that? The Left have already thrown the baby out with the bath water and you will struggle to get our iconography, our myths and legends to be a respectable thing for a liberal to be associated with. I wish it wasn’t so but that’s the truth of the matter. The damage is done.
So, what do SNN listeners think?
Are we fatally undermining ouir appeal to potential anti-Jihadis on the left by wrapping ourselves in the Union Flag and making them think we're some sort of slightly Jewish-accented branch of the BNP or the Tel Aviv branch of Combat 18?
Does our admiration for the man who led us to victory over the Nazis make us...er...Nazis?
Here's my take.
Of course what we have here on SNN is iconography. Of course we're indulging a certain set of myths, not in the sense of them being lies or untrue, but a group of stories we tell about ourselves explaining who we are and what we stand for.
Those stories, those attitudes, that flag, that man...all of them carry deep complexities as well as simple meanings, I don't think we're suggesting anyone should be blind to any faults or mistakes in our collective past.
But myths are needed, they're vital if we are to retain any sense of ourselves as ourselves, as peoples with a joint origin, experience and destiny.
I've never bought into the theory that "progressive" politics has some sort of inevitable pre-ordained victory built into it.
And I vehemently reject it's blanket rejection of the past as useless, and of our common values as a conspiracy to retain a class system which is based on systematic violence and opression, a system which has been used to conquer and exploit non-Western peoples who were powerless to resist our advanced weaponry and rapacious greed for resources which didn't belong to us.
Not that there's not more than a grain of truth to that view - there is, as even a cursory glance at history should be enough to convince you.
I guess I'm trying to restore some balance, and if that offends some people on the Left who are so blinkered by their politics that they see nothing salvageable in the Anglo-Protestant political/cultural system whatsoever, then so be it.
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Comments
So, it's a bit hard to have a meaningful conversation with a movement (the left) that is in such denial of its own history. Own up to your own past lads; stop trying to slander us with your own sins, and then perhaps we can have a conversation. Failing that: that: f*ck off. We're not into "reaching out" to dickheads.
Evan Sayet gave a very good talk a couple of years ago, in which he gives what I think is the definitive explanation for why the modern "progressive" left is unable to take a stand against Islamo-fascism, and why they seem confused on this whole issue of "Good" and "Evil". It's 40 minutes long, but very much well worth it.
He has without doubt got to the heart of what motivates the left, and can therefore explain why otherwise good, smart people support evil and dumb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
stick to your guns. We need to start a fight-back against the lefty-academic-nihilists who have done so much to damage and undermine western culture, achievements and benefits. The 80s were a sad time because the left used any method they could to attack Thatcher and, in doing so, they undercut and destroyed much of our own cultural foundations. Our education system in the UK teaches little or no history or context - but plenty of 'other' cultures and their histories and continues to educate (propagandise) how bad we were. Slavery is a regular and popular stick to beat our innocent children with. Of course, (ongoing) Arab slave-holding is never taught. Neither is the fact that Arabs took up to a million white people from Europe as slaves for the Ottoman Empire, etc.
What angers me about the west is the laziness that has crept into everything we do - work, rest and play. We are so well off, so comfrotable, so bored, so untroubled that no one wants to do hard work anymore; and nobody wants to fight to defend what we have that is good. Our democratic freedoms and open society are under threat from Islamic facism which makes no bones about its ultimate goal: to take over the world. When Hitler indicated the same game-plan 70 years ago we realised the danger and stood up, stood tall, took a deep breath and made the sacrifice. The problem with the lefty-fasictst today is that they are a bunch of cowards unable to defend themselves or those they love and/or care for. They think that sanctions, placard-waving protests and letters to their MP/UN/EU Court is adequate defence against tyrrany. Idiots!
Oriana Falacci said that the anti-capitalist protesters of the modern western world are cowards because they believe they are brave warriors fighting against the evil of capitalism, risking their.....what?; but they do so knowing full well that they will not be taken away in the night and tortured or murdered. They complain about nothing at all, they have no real worries or financial concerns because the soft western governments will give them money whatever they do. They will not starve nor will they ever make any real personal sacrifice. We have lost the plot and we do not realise how hard life really could be. The only people who are making a true sacrfice are our military personnel - and they do so with a cloud of public doubt hanging over their heads.
For God's sake keep the flag waving Tom and co. we have to start the fight back somewhere and somehow. It always starts with small resistances, and will probably take a long time but we can get back our pride and our self-belief and we can defend what is good. There is good and evil in the world of today. I know which is which and I believe a lot of people also know but they are not yet angry enough to spill onto the streets. I hope that SNN and those that help, contribute and share the word are part of something that will become bigger.
As for the far right and the BNP et al: the people of the UK are so fed up with lefty idiots and other, worthless UK political parties who follow the same tired ideas and policies, that we will vote for anyone who stands up for what we believe is the right way. It is an insult to label all BNP voters as working class morons - there are a lot of middle class voting secretly too. We may find that the protest vote goes to the far right for the time being - as a warning to the mainstream parties that the British people who feel they have a genetic heritage in this land have had enough of Multi-culturalism, anti-British negativism and we want our culture and land back! Or, at least, that we want equal time, equal protection and equal attention to that culture and heritage. If we were brown skinned, can you imagine the outcry and the frantic policy-making in the government? But no, we are white and therefore genetically guilty of sins against humanity - despite the fact that none of us actually had any hand in the matters of the past!
God, it makes me boil with rage!!
Keep up the good work. I think the nihilist left is worried.
What is precisely wrong with the west now is a lack of self confidence, a lack of the wherewithal to actually say, in a public manner, that the values we hold, values that are voluntarily adopted by people from all cultural backgrounds if given the chance, and whose appeal is obvious in the fact that migratory patterns are overwhelmingly from "east" to "west", are while not always perfectly upheld, are nevertheless worth defending. the overall record of the West in bettering the human condition is positive, despite what the Noam Chomskys of the world would have us believe.
Like it or not, there is a set of icons that represent this tradition, and it would be a damn shame if the subset of that iconography that originated in the UK were to be dispensed with.
The enemies of freedom and this set of values are all to proud of their iconography, and go to great pains to display their set of images. So, why the hell should we not do so? To do so is to concede defeat in the symbolic realm.
To broaden your appeal, ramp up the satire, be unmerciful in your parody. Here in the states, you will find the most sucessful conservative talkers are those that are unafraid to offer biting in satire of the left. Find some folks that can immitate lefties, have them do parody interviews, parody songs (ala Paul Shanklin from Limbaugh's show), that sort of thing, along with the more serious interviews.
I'm center-left, or rather I have been all of my life and have become very disenchanted and sympathetic towards center-right, who are anti-jihadist but more to the point, anti-Islam.
However unfortunately it's mostly the religious-right in USA who are anti-Islamist but likewise anti-evolution and anti-homosexuals etc which have made it nearly impossible for me to be conservative and made it very unlikely any well-meaning people from the Left would even consider them as allies.
I have to admit, when first stumbling onto this site the iconography and the usage of Anglosphere raised a red flag. Anglosphere? It's a concept that was new to me, but all too familiar when packaged in a different brand; Hispanic, or Latino. In the states this concept is free and encouraged: promoting a sense of community among people who share a language and admittedly a culture. For those of us who speak English, we're not allowed to share a culture. That's racist. Yes, its ridiculous but that's the way it is - and how do you attract people who are largely irrational in their hatred of all things European, or associated with Whites or Anglos, I don't know. Evil Imperialists are only evil when they're white, it seems. Arabs were justified, and even the Imperialistic Spanish are forgiven their sins because their Central-South-American descendants are mostly brown today.
All of the focus for condemnation is on the White/Anglo Europeans as evil imperialists and oppressors and this is precisely why the severe bias against Israel exists. Israel, whether correct or not, is seen as the White European hand in the brown Middle East. This is just so stupid but that is how it's seen. I'm telling you, the whole Leftist minion support for Palestinians is the perception (whether correct or not) that they are brown people. And I say minion because I fully expect the educated Leftist knows the reality to be contrary to this perception but capitalizes on this perception to further their cause. I know this through debates and simple arguments I've had for the last 10 years.
Ironically enough, its the Leftist's racism and soft bigotry of "lowered expectations" that views Arabs as essentially children that makes them so pitiable in their corruption and makes whatever terrible violence perpetuated by Arab Palis as justifiable while all blame for that violence goes to the white Israelis who are seen as Adults. I've also seen quite a few white Arabs and dark Israeli Jews but none of that matters. It's the perception that matters. And don't get me started about women's rights. The Left has become a mirror-image of what it claims to be against. This is just the way it is.
All I can say is what initially made me weary of SNN also piqued my interest. I found you interesting precisely because your voices and ideas didnt match with what I had presumed you to be from first appearances. But that's just me. Maybe you ought to focus more of your shows on this very point.
Our job as conservatives is not to play nice and try to sweet talk Liberals into joining our ranks. Our job as conservatives is to speak the Truth, boldly and clearly, so that when a Liberal begins to see the flaws in his worldview and the holes in his logic, he will be able to find out what the truth is. We should be as polite and welcoming as we can, of course, but we should not compromise on the truth.
We have the advantage here. Truth stands the test of time. Lies and delusion inevitably fall apart. Let's just hope that when the inevitable comes, it's not too late.
Keep SNN's iconography. It is what makes it distinctive. So much about political reaction is based up a group-think fear of what is marked as "taboo". Harry's Place isn't that bad (even Gene, who can be a twat) and it is one of the few leftwing areas that has sense.
Nice to know you write there too.
I am however, dissapointed in what David T has said in this blog about your inconography and on a wider point what they stand for. I see the Union Jack and I think of my country, which I love and the values it stands for. I see Churchill and I see one our great leaders, whom we should be proud, for the same reason the Indians can be proud of Ghandi or the South Africans of Mandela. These are great historic statesman. And they all fought intollerance, won and have shaped the world to what it is now. Churchill is ours we should be proud.
I assume that this iconography is rascist is to wave the white flag to the nazis, of both muslin and British origin. To assume they are rascist is to let the BNP win and be able to equate being fascist with common sense. I fail to see how David T on the one hand can say how much he wants to fight the BNP and yet let them win by agreeing that the union jack and Churchill are symbols of fascism.
It is exactly reasons like this, which is why the BNP have been on the rise. I work in the Dearne Valley in South Yorkshire, which for those of you that aren't familar with Yorkshire, is where there used to be a LOT of coal mines. This is, or should be a solid labour area. Yet it is an area, particularly in ex mining communities, where the BNP have risen their profile. And the reason, these are areas that have been abandoned by left and right. The right exploited and ripped it's communities apart and the left failed to fight on its behalf. Now the Labour Party are more interesting in pleasing Guardianistas than people in these communities. Yet to my mind, these areas are why the Labour Party excists, to be a force that will fight for them, to be the interest group of the many not the few, to quote both Star Trek and the Labour Party consitution. The abandonment of these areas has coinsided with allowing the BNP to act as if they are the only party to represent Britain and its peoples interests. To quote someone I work with, "I would vote for the BNP, but they're nazis". This to be is typical, the appeal is not that he agrees with fascism, quite the opposite, it's why he's opposed to them, but he was tempted to vote BNP because they are the only party to appear to fight for ordinary folk.
So maybe, David T should look a little deeper than just iconography and in fact to fight the assumption that said iconography is rascist, yet such an assumption allows them to distract from the fact that they are rascist. I would dearly love SNN to feature more of the sensible left AND to fight said assumptions. The likes of SNN and HP gives me hope about the world in different ways. I hate the right in many and I hate the left in many ways. It's called thinking for yourselves, which you can only do with freedom! Keep up the good work both orally and written.
The point is, and you have said this yourself, it is in fact your myths and iconography that stop you widening your fan base. Like any fundemental belief, whether put across satirically or seriously, you are not going to be able to widen your fan base without dilluting your purpose. Which is something you have stated you will not be doing, and the majority of your fans agree with you on this.
Personally, though i do not agree some of the content posted on your blogs/podcasts, i find the level of satirical humour both intellectual and amusing. Therefore, perhaps one way to broaden your fan base/ increase your subscriptions/whatever your purpose is, is to emphasize yourself not as a Right-Wing superweapon of rational thought, but instead take the stance of something like Daily Show. Whilst everybody knows the show is a potent political force, whether you agree with them or not, Jon Stewart and others on the show vehemently deny that they are a serious political voice.
By doing so, you will get more people who are not Centre-Right enthusiasts, but people who listen/read what you have to say because of the entertainment value, not the political message that you are trying to put across.
This will allow you to "stick to your guns" and appeal to a wider audience.
Yes, because most problems are solved by ignoring or hiding from them.